Dating Series- At Some Point They Will Date.

So what do we do when "dating" and boyfriends rears its ugly head as early as 11 or 12 years old?
Click here to find out!  Dating Amongst Tweens

As I asked several dads for their opinions on daughters dating, the collective opinion seemed to be a big fat no! Read here:  Dads Against Daughters Dating.

Today I want to share some more similar thoughts from dads, and also how they handle the transition into inevitable dating, when their daughters ARE old enough. Because eventually she's gonna go out with someone right?

There are different approaches towards this. Hopefully in these different approaches and philosophies you can find one that works for you.

Scenario 1- When a 16 year old daughter asked to hang out with a guy friend alone, the guy had to come see the dad first at home, even if the date was just an hour at Sonic.  They would chat about life, or he would throw out random questions to see how the guy handled it. That lasted for quite awhile before he stopped putting him through the process. That dad has the philosophy that boys and girls that are "friends" are never just friends, and someone always ends up liking each other. For that reason, he does not have a different category for how he treats "friends" or "boyfriends". If you want to hang out with his daughter, even as a friend, you go through the same treatment a boyfriend would.

Scenario 2- A daughter is in 9th grade. A group of friends want to go out together. Though no one claims to like each other, the group is 2 boys and 2 girls. Only because the dad knew all kids involved, and knew their families, did he allow it. If he hadn't known the kids and the families, he wouldn't have allowed it at 15.  But the boys were still required to call him first, get his permission and talk to him about the outing. It had a very safe feel to it.

Scenario 3- Dad does not allow any outings at all until the boy meets with him and goes through a series of questions with the dad. Dad sets out a very clear plan of what he wants for his daughter and what he expects from the boy in his behavior.

Scenario 4- After relenting to let his daughter date at age 18 to a pretty good guy, dad still set limits on how much time could be spent together each week. It could not be together all the time every day.

Lastly, I'd like one more dad, who has two teen daughters, to share his philosophy.

"Here are my thoughts on allowing my daughters to "date" in their early to mid teen (13-17) years.

I do not see any scriptural support for allowing daughters or sons to date in the traditional American sense.  The pattern we find in scripture is one where dating (courtship or even engagement might be a better description) was for the purpose of leading to marriage. So unless I, as a father, am ready to let my daughter marry between the ages of 13-17 then dating is not an option.

I am all for my daughters getting to know someone better who they have an interest in, through correspondence and conversation in controlled environments, but even then not until the mid teen years. During this time they should observe the young mans spiritual walk, how he treats her, how he treats his mother and siblings and his respect and obedience toward his father.

Then assuming they find themselves compatible with one another and could see that the relationship could lead further towards the engagement and marriage path, I would be comfortable before the Lord that a "dating" relationship could begin."

This dad's daughter, when she was 18, had a boy interested in her. He approached this dad and asked if he had permission to get to know his daughter better. The boy and girl wrote letters back and forth and texted for a few months (happened to be long distance, family friends who had moved away). Then he approached dad again and asked if he could commit to a more dating relationship with her, meaning that he could foresee the possibility of wanting to marry her one day. Permission granted. So phonecalls and skyping joined the letters and texts. Two years later they are still dating and visiting each other.

Basically, there are many routes to take. These dads just want to make sure their daughters are well treated and respected and protected. There are still dads out there who set boundaries and require things of boys. It isn't always easy to do, because girls may resist it and find it unnecessary, but a decent guy is usually up for the challenge. So dads if you're feeling old school or wimpy, step up! You're not alone. Though it's not as common, there is still a need for dads to play their protective role over their daughters.

As my husband puts it, as the girls get older, he can't stop things from happening, but he can definitely be a good speed bump.

D.A.D.D.s - Dads Against Daughters Dating

Our last post "Dating Amongst Tweens" tackled the subject of how, when and if dating should begin among our kids. Often there is some version of "dating" beginning in late elementary or early middle school (known as the tween years), so it's never too early to start figuring out your philosphy!

Your opinion will be needed sooner than you'd think.

Girls want to feel loved. Every girl wants to know that she is desirable. That may be a main motive for girls wanting to date.

A girl may find herself suddenly in a situation she didn't plan on. Say a middle school girl is innocently strolling around the school hallways, unawares. Before she heads into 5th hour, a boy delivers the message that his friend, who happens to be the guy that all the girls admire, likes her and wants to know if she likes him back. Flustered, and now flattered, this girl has felt the thrill and excitement of being wanted, picked out of a crowd, desired.

That can be an emotion that is heady and takes over reason. My husband has said this to our girls in the past...."There will come a day a guy will like you. It will feel amazing. But here's the clue, you don't have to do anything about it."

I think this is smart because if the above scenario happens, the girl feels giddy and ecstatic, then has to make a decision. What do I answer? Then comes the question, will I be his girlfriend? If she's thought about it prior and isn't caught off guard, she may realize "Wow, it really does feel great...and I think I'll just enjoy it feeling great. I don't think I'm ready to do anything about it." (Or she may yell YES, but we can hope).

The reality though? If all the girls are in love with him, the relationship probably won't last long and he'll  just add you to a list of girls conquered.

On the flip side, some girls now are putting undue pressure on boys at an early age. When they are "dating", suddenly the girl is shooting the evil eye at other girls who simply look in his direction. He's not allowed to have friends that are girls. One girl said "Girls often mistake having a conversation with flirting." Do we really own other people like that? Where they aren't allowed to talk to other people?

I asked several dads for their opinions on tween dating (ages 11-12 ish).
I asked about dating during tween and early teen years.  What I got was largely anti-dating answers, regardless of what stage of teen years we are referring to. (I'm happy to post a dad's opinion who is pro dating, I just haven't been able to find one!) None of these people who gave opinions are against dating entirely, they are just wary of dating before marrying is actually an option. And apparently, they know boys better than we moms do, having been one before.

Here are their thoughts:

"As a teacher and a dad of three girls, I'm totally against dating in the forms that I have seen. I don't want my daughters wrapped up into one person either emotionally or physically. They can go on dates to dances and such. Dating seems to awaken things in kids both male and female long before it is time. Definitely okay with dating in college and maybe late high school, depending on my daughter and the guy. What I tell my high school students is all kids are stupid when it comes to dating in high school so don't date." (I wish you could know this dad to "hear" him saying that last line. He is so fun and loved by teens, and connects with them instantly. Besides being a public school teacher, he has spent years in youth ministry, so he sees alot.)

"Girls basically want to feel loved and guys want to feel respected/have their ego filled. Guys probably love the hunt to make a girl like him more than the actual girl herself. It's more competition and a hunt, enjoying the power to make someone like you, more than the actual person. The girl is thinking it's all romantic and personal, and is doodling her first name with his last, and he's just happy to have someone cool to hang out with at the football game Friday night."

"I am not particularly open to my 13 year old daughters dating. It is no commentary on their maturity. However, I don't see the point or value of such relationships when they must be prohibited from running their course. Since this is the case, I can see no good excuse for them to subject themselves to the anguish of love lost, etc. Nor the pressure to behave in ways they ought not."

"Dating too early is almost guaranteed disappointment. You'll most likely end up taking hits on self esteem, and become an unintended victim."

One dad says he remembers being in 6th grade. His entire goal was to touch a boobie. It didn't matter whose boobie, anyone's would do. His girlfriend I guess would be the first one who allowed him to touch her boobie? That's deep. Haha. But honest.

"If a guy gets dumped, he probably doesn't care nearly as much as the girl would if she got dumped. His ego is probably hurt more than his heart."

"Girls look for relationship, boys look for opportunity. That's why guys can move on so easily. If a girl doesn't want to do something, he'll move on to the next one who will give him an opportunity."

(This last one is deep if you think about it. Girls should perhaps not feel quite so flattered in those times that boys are just seeking anyone willing. What happens is sometimes girls give in to things because they think they have to to keep the boy. That may be true- if it is, is that the kind of relationship you want? He's not after you, just what you can give him? The only fix for that is girls having high enough value and identity to not give into this. Hopefully parents of guys are teaching them that girls aren't just to meet their needs, but valued as people. And vice versa. Dating is best after kids have grown up enough to understand the value of other people.)

"Relationships in teen years usually cost more than they are worth. The risk outweights the benefit. There may be some value, but usually there's little value."

"From experience, boys are generally too immature to come close to meeting a girls' expectations. It's difficult at 42, I'm just figuring it out. Guaranteed a 14 year old guy doesn't know what he's doing. Girls tend to be surprised when disappointment happens, or when a guy is disappointing, but it shouldn't be surprising."

"If you can make it through high school without a boyfriend or girlfriend, I truly believe you'll be a healthier, more whole person".

This conversation happened referring to older teens and college aged dating, but they said, "Ya gotta date through the chemical phase. Aren't there love chemicals that get released that make us all lovey dovey and crazy? Definitely gotta date long enough for the love drug to wear off. Then see."


Here's what's helpful about the dad opinion. They are typically not emotionally involved in decisions, as we moms can be. They are protectors and logical. So often they can see things more clearly than we can, because they don't wrap themselves up in the process, but just call it like they see it. We do have to work together at times and he may need to hear some of our side to understand other things, but for the most part, when it comes to this subject of dating, even if you don't always agree, I say it's pretty good to have a husband with an opinion. He's usually right.

Putting all this thought and care into our dating opinion doesn't mean our kids will always listen to us, or that they'll do everything right. But both parent's perspectives are needed, and care and concern should go into how we approach this subject early on.

The Blue Ivy Effect

Wow, this baby's got some power.

To change the heart of Jay-Z, a rapper whose lyrics have helped build a culture of disrespect toward women, into a feeling, contemplative father.

My husband just forwarded me an article. Jay-Z has decided to ban the B**** word from all future songs, within a week of having his own baby girl, Blue Ivy (mom/wife is Beyonce).

I applaud him and believe everyone deserves grace. I hope it a real change and that his love for this baby will cause him to contemplate banning other things as well. But this article by an African American, Dr. Boyce Watkins, has an interesting perspective of  "too little too late."

A quote by Dr. Watkins:

"You can’t spend two decades referring to other men’s daughters as b*tches and hoes, and then somehow decide that your own daughter is going to be exempt from the game." "Perhaps Jay-Z will now learn the frustrations of millions of other fathers who’ve been long hurt that so many hip-hop artists have trained black men to show the utmost disrespect for their little girls."

Rap music has affected every race.  Ask any teen. He is one of the most successful rappers. Millions of our youth are listening to his damaging lyrics.

Jay-Z has now seen his own innocent little baby girl.  He has now felt the heart of a father. It must have surprised him.  And touched him.  He probably doesn't want anything negative to ever touch her.

This is just a picture, just an inkling of how our Creator Father feels toward each of us.

Being a parent is a picture of the love He feels for us. This parent love is why we fight for what's good for our kids. He fights for our good as well. But just like we can't force our kids to choose, He won't force us either.

But He gives us little pictures, hoping to get our attention. I think Jay-Z just had one of those picture moments. He sees his baby girl and said I won't use the B word anymore in lyrics. Having seen her, he doesn't ever want her referred to that way, rightly so.

If only Jay-Z could see that His own Creator looks at him the same way. Can you imagine with me?

"You're too valuable for all that. I have a better way for you than all the negative messages and names the world will call you. I want to keep you from all of that dirtiness, because you're mine. You're different than that. I want you to listen to the love I have for you, and not the messages you could grow up hearing. I don't want people to pull you away from me, I want to protect you. Let's have a better life than that, together."

I don't like his music. But he's still a human in need of grace, like all of us.

Now just like Jay-Z and every other human alive, Blue Ivy will get to choose whether to listen to cultural messages that her father helped create, or to choose the hopefully new message of her father. And whether to choose the message of her Creator Father.

Hopefully she'll never hear the lyrics of "Ain't No N****" or "Money, Cash and Hoes" or "99 Problems", that totally and completely disrespect women. (What is Beyonce thinking? How does that work?)

Now maybe he can understand why many of us don't support his type of music.  Because we don't believe our daughters are b*tches or hoes and don't want anyone telling them they are.  Instead we believe they can find people of character who will respect and value them. We pray to God that they will not receive the demeaning message that has been his for the past 20 years.

I hope this change is real. Truly.  Maybe Blue Ivy will continue to have a cleansing effect on her father.

But for now, his banning of the b*tch word is an interesting cause for thought though, isn't it?

What do you think, good for him, or too little too late?

Rockhold Girls Have Their Say

WOW. That was then, this is now! After a hilarious afternoon getting four opinionated sisters to agree on a picture to post with this blog, I told them that nothing has changed! You would think we were all still 15! I have a whole new set of blog material with their rantings of who looked like what in each picture! :) Having 25 children among them, it was pretty difficult to find a non-pregnant skinny phase for all at one time HAHA. I told them it was all silly because they all look beautiful in every picture I see! Aren't they all lovely?

These girls were all too willing to share 5 things they are glad their mom did, now that they can look back and see without a clouded adolescent perspective! :) We'll go youngest to oldest for the sake of my BFF VALERIE.

Valerie- (that's her right in front)

1. I'm so glad my Mama instilled in me a real love for Jesus Christ, and a faithfulness to His people!

2. I'm so glad she was strict, even though at the time..I didn't like it...ha! I think I'm way more strict now than she ever was!

3. I'm so glad she loved my dad the way she did and still does. Her example there has been really wonderful.

4. I'm so glad she instilled in us a love of family...and spending time together. I love my family!

5. I'm so glad she taught me to be courteous and respectful. I've seen SO MUCH of the opposite in my grown up life, I'm glad I know better!

Janet- (far left in picture)

1. I'm so thankful for my mother's confidence. She was always sure of herself when it came to mothering and it gave me wonderful security. I don't remember her ever second guessing herself. I wish I had the same confidence.

2. She loved our Daddy so much. I think their 5:00pm smooch when he got home from work every day taught me myriads of things! Taught me that I was secure in a family where they loved each other and taught me how to "greet" my hubby!

3. I'm thankful she didn't feel like she needed to "flit about town" and be involved in lots of other things to make her feel fulfilled. She worked, she was a wonderful nurse, but she was fulfilled the most I think by being our mom.

4. She was always home when we were home, always there to listen to us (even if she was so sleepy she would nod off).

5. I'm so thankful she taught us about the Lord Jesus and the gift of salvation and that she encouraged us to grow in the Lord. I love that she's always been my teacher/encourager in my life long pursuit of being as good of a momma as she was!

Karen - (back middle in picture)

1. I loved how much my mom and dad loved the Lord. It was never religious or churchy or just social. They lived it every day. Not that there weren't disappointments, but she was always honest, never hypocritical. They taught us about Lord.

2. My mom was always lots of fun; she liked to stay up late, always watching The Tonight Show. She loved parties and having friends over, hers and ours. I remember how she let me skip school my senior year, just to shop for a prom dress. (I should have skipped that prom, ha). I thought she was really cool to let me do that.

3. I agree with my sisters, except that I don't think she was always home when we got home. It's just that we felt so secure, we didn't mind. She worked different shifts and would often leave before 7:00am for work, while I was on my way to the bus. Sometimes she would not get off until 11:00pm. But it all seemed so normal to us (we even sometimes "skipped" holidays until the next day, when it was her turn to work a holiday shift). We just felt secure as a family. Our house was always a place friends wanted to come.

4. I ALWAYS knew my mom could fix any problem, especially if it involved blood! (being a nurse) HA! I'm sure she was scared at times, but she didn't let us know it.

5. I know how much she didn't want to move to Ponca City at first (where we grew up), leaving her parents in Kansas City and coming to a small town. But I never realized it then. After 30 years in Ponca, she didn't want to leave and move back to Kansas City! I miss Ponca City, but I am glad she's closer to us now. Now that I'm a wife and mother, it's easier to see how much she gave of herself. I love her dearly!

Wendy-(far right in picture)

1. She really trusted in the Lord to work in our lives. She was not surrounded by books and magazines that are so available now for help. She didn't have Google, she didn't have peers giving her free advice.

2. She trusted us girls to make right choices. She didn't hover over us with advice. I remember that some of her friends were critical of her trust in us.

3. She was just who she was. She never pretended to be someone she was not. She was a new believer when she married my dad, so she was intent on surrounding us with opportunities to be exposed to Bible teaching.

4. Even though she was strict, she was never a list of rules. She had compassion on us when we made mistakes and didn't berate us for them.

5. She taught me to love lemonade! Silly, huh?

Well Mama Rock ought to be one happy camper now, right? If you missed yesterday's post where Mama Rock told her five things, check it out! They are a great family. Good memories.

Hopefully everyone likes the picture!

and I wonder who is pregnant...JK!!!!

IS IT OK TO NEED TIME ALONE??!

Blogging was tossed aside the last few days due to being on a getaway with my hubby of 20 years....that's right, 6 days alone! That's rare, but so fun! Here we are at Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. Now I'm back home and today at my scheduled haircut, my hair guy and I told each other about our trips- we BOTH just got back from rare "alone-with-our-spouse-trips" to Cali!

Then we veered into the inevitable talk about raising kids (he has 7 kids and is in the throws of all young ages!) All this reminiscing got my mind going.

Such a key part of parenting well is having a good marriage. Part of having a good marriage is making time for the two of you to be alone, even if it doesn't seem convenient. Time alone, it's a good thing to pursue.

Yesterday at Walgreens, my favorite checkout lady and friend, Karen, asked how school was going for my kids. I said I barely knew because I got them started in school then immediately left for a week! Her quick and usual wise response was "and what a growing experience for your kids to get through that alone" (meant in the best way possible). That was nice to hear because I did have one small twinge of doubt about leaving, but it was truly the only possible time for us to get away. Yes I had guilt about missing Back to School night for one of them, but my fabulous friend went in my place and all was well. We moms are notorious for feeling guilt no matter what we decide! But if we "feed" our marriage, we fuel our parenting as well.

Knowing this need to get away, along with reliving "little kid days" with my hair guy took me back (humor me and follow the path of my mind) to days when my girls were all little and sometimes I just needed a break! Like a real "get away" break. I LOVED being a mom of little girls, but I will also be honest and say that there were times if I didn't get away I thought I'd go crazy....yes, I LOVE me some alone time....which is rare at that stage of life. I used to dream of a Land called NOONENEEDSMOM. Of course I loved and wanted to be needed, but just for a day?! Maybe two? No one needs anything? Doesn't that sound dreeeaaaammmmyyy?

I happen to have a husband who believes in the premise "if mama ain't happy nobody's happy". But back in those days he took it a step further (being a true man) and actually suggested and helped make it happen! NO, he wasn't trying to get rid of me (I don't think). He truly knew everyone's life would be more peaceful if I got those precious few moments of ME time to regroup. Wives everywhere burned in jealousy when they realized I had a man who would send me on a trip and offer to take care of the kids (just kidding). But there's also another element to this concept. Some women may have been jealous for alone time (who knows), or judged me for leaving my kids, OR maybe even had a husband just as willing. But sometimes great moms are also very uncomfortable to let things fall into the hands of dad tactics, like the kids won't survive without mom there. I took a risk back in the day and let him try it. Guess what? Everyone survived. Was it different? Yes. Was it the way I did things? No. Did everyone miss me and appreciate me? Yes. Did they have fun without me? Yes. They even made fun dad memories that wouldn't have happened otherwise.

Are you in this position and wishing for some time away? Are you thinking about forwarding this blog to your husband to give him a clue? (hee hee) Take these 5 points into consideration.

1. Pick a fabuously thoughtful husband. If it's too late for that, then

2. Tell him some benefit that he will receive by you getting away. If you're happy, he'll be happier. It's not manipulation, it's just true!

3. NOW, don't NAG him about how he does things while you're gone. (yes if you forward this to him, I meant for him to see this point). Let dad be dad no matter how preposterous things can be (ha). You can go into any bookstore and find biographies of children who survived horrifying conditions growing up. People are very resilient. The kids will survive if nap time is skipped or cookies are served for dinner. My own kids memories of "dad-cations"? They loved using only paper products. Therefore no dishes to do. They also survived a tactic that I thought was ludicrous and unfair, (but rather funny). For dad-survival, by day two my husband eliminated all questions. If you have small children, you know that is the majority of conversation. He was great fun, did lots of stuff with them, took fabulous care of them, but just couldn't handle the barrage of conversation and questions. "Ut! Was that a question? Remember no questions." Guess what? They aren't scarred. They barely remember. The point is, I was ALONE and the kids were bonding with their manly dad.

4. Now before you leave, prepare yourself to deal with the guilt you will feel upon departure. Motherhood is one big guilt trip after another. My memory is of my family driving me to the airport when I went to stay with my sister in D.C. The kids were all little. I looked at them in the backseat and my quietest one was just sitting there silently with tears rolling down her sweet cheeks. STAB ME IN THE HEART. I said goodbye, got inside the airport and called my friend. I said, "I need you to tell me right now that I'm not a bad mother and that it's ok to go on this trip." My wise friend said "You are teaching your girls to go visit each other one day and to take care of themselves too". What a good friend. I went.

5. When you get back, you will be ready for the Land of EVERYONENEEDSMOM. Be extra nice about everything, be nice to your husband, and maybe just maybe, no one will mind if you do it again!

For women who don't have this option, my heart goes out to you. Truly. I've been humorous in this blog, but I have so much respect for women who parent alone. I hope and pray for creative solutions for you. Maybe two moms can swap time with each others kids to allow alone time. This is an area we could perhaps be more sensitive to others. Maybe watch for moms who need time and offer services ourselves. Just a thought. Everyone is entitled to a little peace, quiet and rest. I'm thankful. And mentally wondering who I need to help.